My Latest Played Baccarat Session

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This topic contains 18 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Ellis Davis 1 month, 3 weeks ago.

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    Just finished playing a Baccarat Session online and finished strong in the end.

    Results are available with shoe pattern, but not able to share the photos. Any suggestions?


    I played just $100 units and my bankroll was slightly over 1000 units. Was able to be in the “+” at 2.63%. (I Sat next to Stan H. and my bankroll for the session is on the bottom left hand corner)


    Ellis Davis

    Hmm, not bad at all Jordan! Your betting is a little wild but at least you are not afraid to bet. And you learned your forum navigation quickly. You are a smart guy.

    This is a perfect OTB4L shoe. Here is how we would play it with the 345 – one of our safest yet most aggressive progressions. Your highest bet ever is 5.



    Ellis Davis

    That will give you some idea of what you are in for on the private forum.

    The secret of OTB4L is knowing when to go ON Straight and ZZ runs. We use the O/R count as I did with YOUR shoe. We teach you all that on the private forum.

    There are 6 systems in your Final Word Manual that cover ALL casino strategies. The first page of your manual is a conversion chart that tells you which system to play from your SAP count. Your two counts, the O/R count and the SAP count are pure simple. you can learn them both in 5 minutes. Then you learn your progressions. YOUR shoe qualifies for the 345. I say it is our safest progression because you can lose it the most times and still win the shoe. In your shoe I could have lost the whole prog 5 times and still win the shoe!

    If you never lose it, like in your shoe, you usually score in the 70’s or better! Most long time players have NEVER had a shoe score in the 70’s. It is just a question of playing the right system with the right prog in the right shoe. THAT is exactly what I teach on the private forum! And in the FW manual.

    Just a word about BTC since they are attacking me yet again. Forums do that when they have nothing good of their own to discuss and concentrate on. Baccaratforums did that just before they closed down for good.

    A couple months ago Keith said he was going to teach you, or rather Kevin and way2fast was going to teach you how to play Baccarat W/O playing a system, in other words, how to guess. BTW, I taught both Kevin and way2fast how to play and they are both SYSTEMS players, not guessers. Systems players are the only players casinos fear. Less than 1% of players are systems players – just as…less than 1% win long term.

    Look guys, more than 99% of players guess and they lose at a spectacular rate. They are exactly why the casino deals Baccarat. Otherwise casinos would never deal a 50/50 game!

    So lately Keith is talking about a system he calls VINSAP. Guys, I copyrighted SAP 20 years ago. I no longer teach that system because while it was good 20 years ago, it is NOT good against TODAY’S game.

    I teach how to beat TODAY’S game – not some game they used to deal 20 years ago. Yes, we do deploy the SAP count and use it to determine the best system to play in the shoe at hand. THAT is what it is good for these days. Yes, Vinny is a good player (VINsap) where he plays at his casino. I should know, I taught him. But I teach how to win ANYWHERE not just at your local casino.

    But it is good to know that Keith is going right back to systems. His fling with guessing didn’t work. But VINSAP??? First, it won’t work against today’s game. Second, I copyrighted SAP 20 years ago. Variations do not get around my copyright.

    Why doesn’t BTC come up with something of their own??? that works???

    Because they have no systems designer. When I left it was the beginning of the end for them. VINSAP – Good grief!

    So now, since they have nothing of their own to discuss, they waste their time throwing shots at me. That’s what losers do – blame somebody else.



    Hi “J” , You should do quite well when you learn these systems ….Just keep asking QUESTIONS WHEN YOU NEED TO . And everything will come-together .

    HI Uncle Ellis ……. LOL>>>>>> I’m even being attacked and ridiculed as per my last few posts ….. And to be honest . It makes me feel GOOD . ( personal i’m s and e-mails ) .  I look at it like this . If they are attacking me . I Must be doing something right , ( making money at the casino) . And they must be doing something Wrong  , ( loosing money at the casino ) . So they can attack me all they want . I just sit back and Laugh Out Loud ……   LOL ……


    I thank you for your feedback Ellis. I know that the results in the session is different then what you have shown and may be weird. However, as I mentioned in the previously. I like working with a small bet size with a safe and big enough bankroll. Along with that, I have 5 concepts that I focus on every time I play,

    The following concepts are as follows:

    1. Having a Goal (Earning 1% to 5% Per session)
    2. Betting Selection (Knowing where to bet)
    3. Money Management (How much to bet per hand)
    4. Discipline (Not be Greedy and Knowing what to do after losing 6 in a row)
    5. Trends (Catching 2 wins or more in a row and be cautious on losing streaks)

      I mention more about this on my Facebook page and on my blog. I wouldn’t mind sharing the rest if you curious with how I stay consistent with the game. I use these in Roulette, Craps, and BlackJack as well.


    Ellis Davis

    Hi Max! Ha yeah, they are attacking you too. Winning players have better things to do. You can always tell losing players. They are always attacking and blaming someone else – anyone else.

    But I don’t blame BTC members for being hyper. After all, they pay nearly 3 times the annual dues that we pay. But when you go to their private forum there is nothing there ; no systems, no counts, no instructions of any kind, no played games, nothing. They don’t even teach you how to fill out a scorecard or how to read a tote board. Not even the basics of playing Baccarat. They tell you to learn from the other players but you have no way of knowing which of the other players are winning – if any. My NOR Manual is gone. All systems instructions are gone. No SAP count. No OR count. No OT count. No betting instruction or how to Exploit. No systems selection, no table selection. No Manual. Keith couldn’t tell you how to play a system correctly if his life depended on it – which it does. Oz never could describe how he plays that anyone could begin to understand. (He net bets OTB4L vs TB4L) Way2fast did well with MDB back 4 years ago when casinos were dealing artificially random shoes but the casinos quickly corrected their mistake and we no longer see such shoes. That is why I no longer teach that system. Kevin tried to teach my 4D but what he ended up with didn’t even remotely resemble the 4D. They don’t even have Steve attempting to teach systems anymore. Maybe they could get Vinny to teach but not everybody can teach. Look at Oz. Keith has a computer program that wins. Maybe he could try bringing his computer to the casino to play his shoes. Those guys are grasping at straws. BTC is exactly like Baccaratforums was just before it went bust entirely. Why they are blaming me, God only knows. I haven’t been on that forum for 2 and a half years.

    I’ve got news for those guys: I did not quit BTC. BTC quit me. Live with it. Teach yourselves.

    So I no sooner post Jordan’s shoe played every play exactly by the book OTB4L 345 when somebody at BTC complains about my 5 bets. Look Einstein, a 5 bet isn’t a 5 bet when you are basing at 3. It is a 1 2/3 bet. Maybe you would grasp it better if I said my progression was 1, 1 1/3, 1 2/3. Or maybe if I said $75, $100, $125. Same thing. But it is a whole lot easier to fill out your score card stating it as 345. I lose a 345, I’m only down 4 base units. You lose a 123 you are down 6 base units. Do you get it now? If not, Baccarat is not your game.

    Look Einstein, I had 5 5 bets in that shoe. Counts them. Even if I had lost all 5 5 bets, a 50 unit swing, I still win the shoe with +21. See why I’m not afraid of 5 bets??? When is the last time YOU had a +21? I’ll bet never.

    Or maybe you were referring to my base progression U1D2 “The PLOW” which I have been basing at for more than 30 years. Yet I am still nearly always the lowest bettor at the table. The norm at the table is more like Jordan bets. The object of any prog is to get back to your base bet – your 1 bet. The U1D2 prog gets back to 1 twice as fast as it gets away from 1. And, it gives you the torque you need to win. Yep, you occasionally get a 5 bet. But I’m there to win, not fart around with 1 bets. You lose a 123, which you WILL, you are pretty much done! I lose a 123 and it is a temporary inconvenience. You lose a 123 and then win a 1,1, you are still down 4. I lose a 123 and then win a 4,2, I’m already even – even though I only won 2 bets out of 5. You play your way. I’ll play mine. I went more than 20 years W/O a losing day. How about YOU???

    Look, I realize you BTC guys are losing. I haven’t had a thing to do with BTC in 2 and a half years. Put the blame where it belongs. Keith has been running your forum for the last 2 and a half years, not me.



    Hello Ellis,

    I sent you a personal email about questions regarding form and final word. when you get a chance. please reply. i am awaiting answers to join/buy final word.

    I am sure you get plenty of emails. search for “Madhu” and it is from me.

    hope we can chat over phone or emails to get me started in right path.

    have a wonderful day. :bye:



    I wasn’t aware that SAP was a ‘system’….

    To my mind, SAP is a tool, an instrument we use to quickly characterize the distribution of events in a shoe. There are other ways of expressing the same thing, but it is a convenient shorthand representation of events relative to their expected frequency of occurrence, and so can define presence and strength of event biases.

    As I understand it, VINSAP, is a method developed by McVince, in collaboration with other BTC ‘premium’ members. It makes selective bets which target triggers for certain SAP events that are eventually realized in almost every shoe. For example, that for the 1s, 2s, 3s and 4+s counts, at least three of these counts will reach 4, 8 and then 12, and where two or more are likely to go to 16, etc. VINSAP bets on hands where any of these SAP plateaus might be achieved.  In effect, it bets that every fourth potential 1 stays 1, every other 2 stays 2, every other 3 stays 3, and so forth.

    For what it’s worth, this is an interesting way to “play the odds” of the shoe. Whether or not it achieves a > 50% hit rate, I don’t know. It would have to accomplish that, since they recommend it be played with a flat betting sequence. That seems to be the philosophy for all of their approaches, in general, these days.


    I find it amusing, to say the least, that the managers at BTC, continue to loosely release information about their newest systems onto public access sites (e.g., YouTube), that they claim are for their private membership, and for which they charge $149.95, followed by $49.95/month. They did the same thing 3 years ago, when they leaked the rules of ‘MDB+’, just before announcing a full day seminar explaining the MDB rules, for $1800!!

    Hard to understand…..




    Also noticed that BTC has a “shoe of the week”, where moderator showcases their software enabling members to input a shoe and then play it out using different betting approaches and progressions. This is a nice feature that allows you to bank practice shoes and test methods. Of course it’s a great tool for instruction, if there is a knowledgable instructor.

    Witness their shoe of the week video from 10-11-17,  loaded to You Tube.




    Moderator presents this as an ideal example to play “Strong Side Bank”, but forgets to mention that the shoe is completely devoid of 3s. While it is ideal for F3, another option is S40M2, which becomes the better approach as this shoe becomes progressively more OR-positive (choppy, with many weak side 1s and 2s).

    A shrewd instructor wouldn’t miss this or the chance to develop a discussion of tandem NOR approaches which target specific event biases, such S40/F3 in the case where 3s are low.

    Just sayin’…….


    Ellis Davis

    All you say is correct and interesting b2b. While it does eventually turn into an SS shoe, it starts out S40M3 quickly turning to S40M2. I therefore started it S40 U1D2 and it never gave me any reason to change. I scored +25 with a highest bet of a single 4. Hard to beat that in only half a shoe. (43 plays) But correct, both F2 and F3 score very high. I think it would have occurred to me somewhere in this shoe that P can’t muster up anything more than a 2 making this shoe highly exploitable with F3 345. Starting at play 3 F3 345 scores +50 which is spectacular for only half a shoe.

    We don’t know where the player started recording this shoe and it would be good if he told us. But it looks to me he started recording around play 30. By that time we maybe already knew it was an SS shoe.

    I also like the idea of a shoe of the week. But when not a full shoe the Player should tell us what play # he started recording and maybe what the SAP count was at that point.                          

    This would be an interesting topic for the public. They would get a good idea of how our systems score relative to how they score. Once they see our methods are highly profitable relative to their own methods – they would know that joining our site would be highly profitable.

    However, I caution the public from attempting to glean information from our public posts. We only give the public enough information to get you in trouble. The meat is in the private forum and in your manual.

    For instance that OTB4L shoe we posted back there: A smart player can pick up the normal betting routine of OTB4L but he can’t pick up how we arrived at the bets that do NOT follow the normal OTB4L routine. That is the key and that can only be found on the private forum and in your manual. Furthermore, OTB4L is only one system of the six we teach you. You need to know when and why and how to play OTB4L. If you try to play only the normal OTB4L betting routine every shoe, you’ll get killed.

    To beat today’s game you don’t only need to know the six basic systems. That is the easy part. You must know how to select the best system for a table from the tote board. You must know what system to play BEFORE you sit down. After you sit down it’s already too late!

    THAT is the purpose of your Manual. Then the private Bac forum is where you get you questions answered.

    And BTW, there is no such this as a dumb question! Not on MY forum.

    A-rao, welcome aboard! We have another new member this week but I don’t know his user name yet.



    Hi Jordan,

    What sight online are you playing at?  Do you think, you get a fair game?  And to any other players, where online is trustworthy for actual play?



    Hi Cochesse
    Well the session that I shown in this post was through Cleebo Casino which you can access through Facebook. Same deal with Vivo Interactive. You can also play in 5Dimes Casino, BetOnline, Bovada, Stoto Cash Casino,, And Royal Panda. Me Personally, I practice with Cleebo Casino and Vivo Interactive. I play the real money on 5Dimes and BetOnline.

    I’m sure that there are many more to choose from and probably better then what I’ve shared. However, I recommended going with the sites that offer the best promotional offers for new players and/or regulars (those who play and promote the site).



    Weekly discussion of an interesting shoe would be a good addition to this forum. I think it would help us apply the information contained in the FW manual, and develop insights that are hard to get from simply ‘knowing’ the rules.



    Great idea Black.  How about some shoes where you switch out of the system you started with, and highlight where and why the switch.  I love Ellis’s reply #4717 in the tote reading thread.  Everyone should check it out, next level.

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